After reading about Daniel Tosh’s rape “joke” to an audience member, and then reading comments from people who defended Daniel Tosh’s rape “joke,” I can come to only one conclusion – that stand-up comedians are often a bunch of whiny privileged babies who can’t take even the slightest hint of criticism.
Here’s what happened: Daniel Tosh said that rape is “always funny.” A female audience interrupted him to declare that rape is “NEVER funny.” Daniel Tosh responded by saying, “Wouldn’t it be funny if five guys raped her right now?” The audience laughed, the audience member who criticized him left the comedy club, she told her friend about it, the friend blogged it, and the Internet responded.
Some people on the Internet said that rape is NOT funny. Some people on the Internet responded by saying that rape IS funny and everyone should be able to joke about it if they want to, and besides, the woman was asking for it by going to a comedy club in the first place.
(I’m not the only one who sees an eerie similarity between the logic behind “If you didn’t want to hear rape jokes you shouldn’t have gone to a comedy club” and “If you didn’t want to get raped you shouldn’t have worn that outfit,” right? Didn’t think so.)
Moreover, the woman was clearly in the wrong because she heckled him. Heckled, in this case, means “interrupting and vocally disagreeing with him.” And people who are defending Daniel Tosh, praising him for being offensive and “edgy” and cool, keep harping on this point – that she was a heckler, and hecklers get what they deserve.
This is where I really wish I had a close friend who was a biologist or anthropologist or some kind of scientist who could identify this subspecies of human being who thinks a person saying that it would be “funny” if a woman was raped by 5 men was “just telling a joke,” but a person interrupting a comedian was committing a terrible breach of etiquette. It’s fascinating to see a group of people who pride themselves on being “edgy” and charmingly offensive and provocative suddenly turn into pearl-clutching, monocle-breaking little old men and ladies when someone breaks the rules in a comedy club.
Seriously, this is how you can sum up most conversations about not only the Tosh incident, but any time there’s a public outcry when a well-known comedian makes a rape joke. Here’s a brief scene between two people I like to call “Taylor” and “Quinn.” (I chose androgynous names intentionally because that’s how I roll.)
TAYLOR: I really didn’t like that comedian’s rape joke. It was a hurtful joke.
QUINN: Psh, whatever. You’re just being oversensitive.
TAYLOR: No, I’m serious. I’m going to let this comedian know my feelings.
QUINN: OMG what is WRONG with you?! You interrupted his routine? That’s so mean and uncalled for!
To people like “Quinn,” interruption and public criticism is a greater crime than “joking” about seeing someone raped – and we’re the “oversensitive” ones.
Meanwhile, they who lash out, silence, and implicitly threaten an objector to the comedy routine for saying the equivalent of “I disagree with you!” – they get to continue to call themselves “edgy.” They get to proudly declare that they are the ones who are not easily offended, and they get to say this without a trace of irony.
Maybe it’s just me, but I’m not overly impressed with the so-called “edginess” of these comedians and these comedians’ defenders if they have to resort to a rape threat to respond to a person who said, “Actually, rape is never funny!” I grew up in a large family of people who made Interrupting an Olympic event, and I didn’t ever respond by saying it would be “funny” if said interrupter was raped.
Granted, standing up in front of a large group of people and being paid to entertain them is a lot more difficult, and has a lot more pressure surrounding it, than eating a dinner with a large family. I’m not saying stand-up is easy.
Then again, I was a teacher for four years and had to deliver a form of my own routine, one that had to be both entertaining and educational – day in and day out for every day of the school year, so I’m not completely unaware of the pressure it takes to stand up in front of a group and perform. And while I don’t have the nerve to attempt stand-up of my own, I look at the kind of heckling I had to face – and that many teachers have to face – every day, and I think that a lot of stand-up comics have NO IDEA how much worse it could get.
I faced worse heckling than “Actually, rape is never funny!” on a daily basis, where kids chatted their way through my lessons to the point where I couldn’t even hear myself, where I was told my breath smelled like horseshit, where I was questioned about my sexuality and sexual history, where I was left sexually explicit “artwork,” where I was threatened with violence. And I can name at least ten colleagues of mine, if not more, who would hear these stories and tell me that I got off comparatively easy – and after hearing their stories, I would agree.
And in the face of these interruptions and innuendos and threats, I would grit my teeth and try not to explode, because if I exploded I could lose my job, maybe even my career, and I had to be careful about what I said.
Meanwhile, a comedian can make a rape “joke” that is really a rape threat to an audience member, get paid to say it, have scores of fans defend him on social media, and still be considered some kind of victim.
Obviously there are, and should be, different rules for educators and performers, but I’m still not impressed with the type of comedians who pride themselves as provocateurs and equal-opportunity offenders who then get so easily offended themselves when an audience member says something that’s a tad more pointed than “I disagree with you, sir!”
Who are these thin-skinned, brittle-boned comedians who can’t listen to an interruption (NOT a heckling) without threatening physical violence? Who are these thin-skinned, brittle-boned fans of said comedians who throw massive temper tantrums and whine about “freedom of speech?” They get paid for saying whatever they want about anything under the sun, and can’t handle when fans tweet at them and disagree with what they say? They get to be special, precious, delicate little snowflakes and still claim to be “edgy” and “innovative?”
Then again, what do I know? I’m too easily offended to be able to think about this clearly.
Articles
Interviews
Novels, Fiction & Silliness
Reviews
Can’t they both be wrong? I mean, don’t misunderstand me– Tosh is VERY VERY WRONG. But I’m also of the school of thought that if you’re at a live show and yell something at the performer, you’re doing something very bad. It’s not “I DISAGREE WITH YOUR OVERALL THESIS STATEMENT”. It’s “You’re on stage and these people paid to see you but I DON’T CARE BECAUSE I’M MORE IMPORTANT.” It’s not cool. Period. Even if the point you’re making is fundamentally sound.
*sigh*
No, I wouldn’t call it “very bad.” Rude, yes, but not “very bad.”
Notice how I made reference to when my students would interrupt me? I didn’t mention it to say “They interrupted me/heckled me all the time AND THAT’S TOTALLY COOL.” I mentioned it to say that I understand what it’s like to be interrupted because I dealt with it all day, every day, but there are lines you don’t cross. Tosh didn’t just cross the line – he threatened it with rape.
If, say, the audience member had responded to his “joke” that “rape is always funny” by saying, “YOU should get raped!” And Tosh’s response was the same, I would think that both of their actions are worth talking about. As it was, though? Sure, think her interruption was rude, but changing the subject to talk about HER behavior is a messed-up priority in my opinion.
See, I think both actions are worth talking about. Interrupting a live show is never cool. Period, full stop. Should he have responded how he did? No. Absolutely not. I am NOT in any way defending or condoning his actions.
To put in metaphor: if Person A starts a fight by punching Person B, and Person B gives a disproportionate response by pulling a gun, shouldn’t they both be charged with something? The wrongness of Person A’s actions aren’t washed away by the More Wrong of Person B’s response.
I’m trying to be clear here, and I’m probably failing. I’m not saying, “Won’t someone think of poor heckled comedians?” I’m saying everyone in this story is an asshole.
Saying “everyone in this story is an asshole” implies that they’re equal assholes, though, and that’s not something I am never going to get behind, not even a little bit. Even though you don’t mean it that way, that’s what the sentence construction implies, and it’s the kind of statement that can have a “well now we’re done talking about this and let’s all shut up about it” connotation, and…no.
Furthermore, since I’m going with the teacher analogy – I think interrupting a teacher is a wrong thing to do. It shows massive disrespect. However, let’s say a teacher says as part of a lesson – a routine, if you will – “Bullying can be funny.” But a student interrupts and says, “Actually, bullying is NEVER funny.”
Even if we hold the opinion that it is NOT OKAY to interrupt a teacher, you’d probably agree that in this circumstance, the student was right to do it, yes?
Why, then, is it not okay for this person to interrupt Tosh’s routine?
Obviously, there are different expectations for someone who is meant to be a role model versus someone who is only meant to be an entertainer, but I’m surprised you would characterize her comment as an example of “what I have to say is more important than you and I am so special” rather than a moral objection and act of protest.
I’m presuming you meant to say that the student interrupts with “Bullying is NEVER funny”, else your example falls apart.
Given that, you make an interesting point. However, as a counter: there is a fundamental difference between a classroom and a stage. In a classroom there is at least some expectation of dialogue, or at least two-way interaction between teacher and students. Not as much between performer and audience (unless it’s that kind of show).
If you make moral objection and act of protest grounds to disrupt a live show… then you open up a can of worms I’m really not comfortable with. Here, yes, you and I agree fundamentally with her objection. But what if it was a gay performer talking about being gay, and a Fundamentalist Christian interrupted the show with “Being Gay Is NEVER right!” Would you be as quick to champion their moral objection and act of protest?
Comparing being gay to being raped is completely different. One is a person’s identity and the other is a violent act upon a man or woman. I just don’t see how rape is funny, or Tosh O. for that matter. If that’s what he has as comedic material then he’s as talentless as they come.
Hey, I don’t disagree with you on Tosh being a talentless hack. That’s not my point. My point it’s easy to say that it’s cool to interrupt a live stage show out of “moral objection” when it’s a moral objection you agree with– but the same argument could be applied to one you don’t agree with.
Both actions apply to freedom of speech so there’s no real solution. I saw on CNN where Tosh tweeted a half-assed apology.
No, I wouldn’t. And I’m okay with that.
This is where I part ways with a lot of people, I think, because I get the impression that a lot of comedians/performers think that if audience members make it more difficult for them to tell rape jokes, it will open a Pandora’s Box all over the world where thousands of formerly silent people suddenly heckle comedians to the point where they CAN’T JOKE ABOUT ANYTHING EVER. And I do not happen to agree with that line of thinking. I think that line of thinking is a little hyperbolic and ridiculous.
Good for her. It was sanctioned bullying, sanctioned mysogyny, and she stood up for what is right. I applaud her bravery for doing so. Even getting people talking is raising awareness. http://www.rainn.org/statistics/
People like Tosh O. are the reason kids disrespect teachers and adults in general. Parents aren’t teaching their kids about respect and that those nasty jokes aren’t funny. My mom is a high school teacher and I’m disgusted by what she has to endure. Meanwhile my nephews, age 7 and 10, are allowed to view videos on YouTube in which people are doing Jackass stunts and they laugh at their pain and suffering. Our culture is seriously in need of a wakeup call.
Amen to this post.
I do not think that interrupting a comedian is in the same league as a rape threat, and I would actually like to see more people interrupt vile comedians.
I wish other patrons in the audience would have spoken out, I know at least one other person in that room thought what he was saying was WRONG but were afraid to bring the venom down upon themselves by speaking out.
I like your take on the pearl-clutching. It’s okay to offend/trigger loads and loads of people with rape jokes, but it’s not okay to offend stand up comedians? Ever?
Hmmm…
“What is this world? I thimk I need a break from it.”
This. Exactly this. That’s a big part of the reason why I took a break from blogging for a while, in fact. I couldn’t deal with processing the ire that stories like this caused me long enough to write about them. Defending those who are in the wrong and an inverted sense of justice is a pervasive issue in our culture, and this is a good example of that.
You know why what Tosh did was so offensive? Not because of your argument, which is valid, but because of the title of your post.
There’s a reason that only black comedians joke about black stereotypes, why only latino comedians joke about latino stereotypes, and why only Jewish comedians make Jewish jokes.
It’s only okay to make light of something awful if you’re on the side of the victim.
The only rape jokes I’ve ever laughed at have come from women. and that’s because it takes having a real understanding of what makes something awful to turn it around and make it funny.
If I were the girl “heckling” Tosh, I wouldn’t have let it go at “rape is never funny.” I would have made it personal- “forcing a 14 year old girl into a closet to violate her wasn’t funny then, isn’t funny now, and will never be funny.” Likewise, raping your girlfriend inside her own apartment wasn’t funny then, it isn’t funny now, and it will never be funny. Like gang raping a “heckler” isn’t funny now and will never be funny.
But accidentally calling the police on your landlord’s handyman because your sure he’s going to rape somebody? That could be hilarious. That’s fodder for comedy.
Tragedy has lots of opportunity to create humor. but the sort of humor that relies on the tragedy itself is only funny to those who don’t see the horror in the subject. Racist jokes are only funny if you don’t have any suspicion at all that the teller is actually interested in lynching black people.
So Tosh’s attempt at rape humor isn’t funny- it’s a threat veiled with a smile.
And that’s the end of my little rant.
I’ve occasionally laughed at rape humor coming from men as well, but these were acts where they were making fun of misogyny and commenting on it through the performance. I have no interest in rape humor that points at the victim and goes “Ha-ha.”
Did you catch Louis C. K. on The Daily Show last night (July 16, 2012)? According to Louis, he was unaware of the scandal and had just happened to tweet about liking Tosh.0 because he was watching it in his hotel room. When he got a lot of negative reaction for his post, he researched it and started reading blogs on both sides. While he was a bit flippant about some legitimate concerns, I felt that overall he displayed a desirable reaction to an argument like this. I’d really recommend watching the interview (assuming it’s still available online given the Viacom idiocy as of late).
As for my take, Tosh’s entire humor style is in trying to say the most absurdedly offensive things to get a rise. I can tolerate Tosh a bit better than scum like Jeff Dunham because Tosh does take things to an deliberately rediculous end and in doing so, highlights the patent absurdity of people that legitimately believe things similar to Tosh’s jokes. Now I do think that shouting at him was a bad choice but I can understand why the audience member might have been offended enough to respond as she did. Tosh’s response to what he viewed as a heckler was both stupid and not funny but Tosh isn’t that good as a professional comedian. I’m far more disappointed in comedians like Patton Oswalt supporting such a stupid position as ‘you should be able to make jokes about anything.’ See, here’s the thing. Nobody’s going to pass a law banning jokes about any topic. If you can legitimately make a funny joke about a taboo topic, people will laugh. But in my opinion, a legitimately funny joke is always aimed at the powerful. Jokes at the expense of victims are just bullying.
I’ve only read about the Louis CK interview. I haven’t watched it myself, but reading the transcript, I was not impressed. I might think differently if I can bring myself to watch it.
See, here’s the thing. Nobody’s going to pass a law banning jokes about any topic. If you can legitimately make a funny joke about a taboo topic, people will laugh. But in my opinion, a legitimately funny joke is always aimed at the powerful. Jokes at the expense of victims are just bullying.
This, I agree with wholeheartedly.
I’m confused by people thinking Louis CK’s Daily Show appearance was in anyway impressive, and I don’t buy for a second he was on an “internet vacation”, and was just a complete coincidence that he praised Tosh. It sounded like a let me get myself out of this while also still totally defending rape jokes and rape culture.
>>Tosh does take things to an deliberately rediculous end and in doing so, highlights the patent absurdity of people that legitimately believe things similar to Tosh’s jokes.<<
This *was* and still largely is my opinion of his schtick, and I do believe that was his tact in repeating that rape was hilarious to show that no rape isn't actually hilarious, which is the only real issue I take with her narrative, I do think she wasn't *getting* that aspect of his humor, which was also obvious when she said she thought he was an amateur due to his "awkwardness" when that's actually *part* of his act/persona.
But he utterly showed his ass by responding to the verbal challenge of a female audience member with a threat of rape. There is no comedy there, that is aggression, and spite and reveals what he *really* thinks about rape, what he KNOWS about rape: that it's a weapon to control, humliate, and silence.
Whatever this whole incident just reminds me of my oft stated positions that most stand up comedians are a really kind of….dark, nasty, mean pieces of work.
I love this entire comment so, so much.
I haven’t seen that much of Daniel Tosh’s stand-up and you seem to have watched more of it, so I can take your word for it that he’s acting as part of a persona. But as you said, if he’s using the threat of it as a way to silence a woman, even though commenting on rape is part of his act, he knows EXACTLY what he’s doing.
As for a lot of stand-ups being nasty pieces of work, I think I have to agree. Not all, of course. But I have two friends who have a great act and they never really made it on the stand-up circuit because their comedy wasn’t MEAN, and they felt the pressure to be meaner just so they could get gigs. It’s disturbing.