[Massive trigger warning for this entire post.]
If you look at my About page, you’ll see the mission statement for this blog: “The Funny Feminist is a way for me to explore my two opposing life philosophies: that everyone should be more sensitive to others, and everyone should lighten up and not take life seriously all of the time.”
Nowhere do these two life philosophies contradict each other more sharply than on the subject of rape jokes. Not that I think people should “lighten up” when it comes to rape jokes, and I would never tell another survivor that s/he was being “too sensitive,” but I wondered if there was a way to joke about it in a sensitive manner.
I didn’t want to write about rape jokes because it’s a very triggering subject and I’m still processing how I feel about the subject, but an article entitled “Female Comedians, Breaking the Taste-Taboo Ceiling” appeared in yesterday’s issue of The New York Times, and
I simply couldn’t keep mum on the subject anymore. I have to write about it even though my opinion is still not fully formed.
The article, written by Jason Zinoman, talks about how female comedians are breaking taboos and joking about things that used to be considered “off-topic” for women. Now, they’re joking about the same subjects that men joke about.
I like that taboo-breaking in theory. In practice, my feelings on the subject are very mixed, especially when you look at the subjects that women are choosing to joke about.
Anyway, this article gives me a perfect opportunity to talk through my feelings about rape jokes.
“Comics like Joan Rivers, Roseanne Barr and Sandra Bernhard were trailblazers, but if you had to pinpoint one joke as a breakthrough for this new generation of female comedians, it might be this one: ‘I was raped by a doctor, which is so bittersweet for a Jewish girl.’ When I saw Sarah Silverman deliver that signature one-liner in a downtown theater almost a decade ago, the audience exploded with laughter followed by groans. Then came the anxious chuckles whose subtext seemed to be: I can’t believe I laughed at that joke.”
The one joke that is a “breakthrough” for female comedians is a joke about rape. My first thought was, “Wow, this author has a very skewed perspective,” but then I think about Sarah Silverman’s popularity and the fact that she makes a lot of jokes about rape…and maybe it’s not such a skewed perspective after all.
That particular joke quoted, by the way, is a perfect example of why rape jokes can be so problematic. It’s not as much of a rape joke as it is a joke about Jewish stereotypes, but it’s still using rape to get to the punchline. I admit that a part of me wants to chuckle at it, but I also can’t tell if Sarah Silverman is talking about her own experiences, or if she’s completely making something up to get her audience to laugh, and both possibilities make me cringe for different reasons.
“For a certain strain of stand-up, dating to Lenny Bruce, it’s essential to talk about what’s taboo. George Carlin famously argued that rape jokes could be funny. ‘Picture Porky Pig raping Elmer Fudd,’ he offered as evidence.”
I love the late, great George Carlin. Love. I am not on the same page as he is when it comes to rape jokes. And yet, the particular image he is describing here is so horrific, so over-the-top ridiculous, that I have to admit, I laughed a little bit when I heard it for the first time many years ago. Is it because a part of me, deep down, agrees that rape jokes are funny? Or am I laughing because the image is so unexpected? Or because I get a little perverse thrill whenever people take childhood classics and show how deeply fucked-up they can be?
“Our culture sends mixed signals about this least funny of subjects. Facebook took down a page dedicated to ugly rape jokes last week after months of pressure, yet every night tourists guffaw at a repeated joke about raping babies as a cure for AIDS in ‘The Book of Mormon.'”
I saw The Book of Mormon and even wrote about it once, but I’ll sum up my opinion here. That particular rape joke doesn’t bother me because the issue of raping babies as a cure for AIDS really does happen, and I see the show as using comedy to put a spotlight on that issue. (Of course, it’s problematic in a different way, as the issue is/was largely a problem in South Africa when the play takes place in Uganda, but the show also makes fun of itself for lumping all the African countries together.)
“Whereas male comedians generally tread more gently, particularly if the victim is a woman (prison jokes are a whole other matter), Ms. Silverman barges forward.”
I’m not sure if I’ve really seen male comedians “tread more gently” when the victim is a woman, for one thing. For another, if a male comedian does “tread more gently” when it comes to female victims, but still rushes to make a bunch of jokes about prison rape, it doesn’t tell me that the comedian is necessarily more sensitive about women; it tells me that he really, really wants to make jokes about rape, but knows he’ll get a lot of shit if he makes the joke about women, so he’ll do it about prisoners instead, because rape is funny when the victim is male. (Hint: no, it’s not, and TV Tropes makes a point of saying that, too.)
“‘I need more rape jokes,’ she shouted nasally before letting her fans in on what she called a comedy secret, that such jokes are actually not so ‘edgy’ after all. ‘Who’s going to complain about rape jokes? Rape victims?’ she asked. ‘They barely even report rape.’ There were no groans this time.”
That’s a rape joke I can get behind, because she’s not making fun of the victims, but in fact pointing out one of the most fucked-up things about our culture: that rape victims often don’t report rape.
Way to go, Sarah Silverman, for pointing out that rape jokes aren’t so edgy after all. So…why do you continue to make them? Ones that don’t criticize rape, anyway?
“[Whitney Cummings’] two new sitcoms, ‘Whitney,’ on NBC, which she created, produced and stars in, and ‘2 Broke Girls,’ on CBS, for which she is a co-producer and co-creator, have done well enough to receive full-season orders. The slightly funnier of these conventionally bland shows, ‘2 Broke Girls,’ does employ several lame jokes that mention rape, and while the show has drawn some criticism, it is probably not nearly as much as a network comedy would have received a decade ago.”
I’ve seen 2 Broke Girls several times in the vain hope that it will get better after awhile, because I like that the show is about a friendship between two women, but I can confirm that yes, the show is rife with rape jokes. The fact that it receives less criticism than it would have a decade ago does not, in my opinion, speak well of our culture.
“[Phoebe Robinson’s] material is tautly written but not particularly risky, except for one joke that received the loudest laugh both times I saw her perform…’When I watch a movie where there’s a really good-looking rapist,’ she says, her tone lilting upward before hitting the punch line on a low note, ‘I think about the girl: Why are you complaining?'”
A joke suggesting that rape is a compliment is somehow “risky” now. Even though it received the loudest laugh both times the writer watched her perform. Contradiction, table for one.
“She sort of apologizes for the joke by looking disappointed with the crowd’s approval.”
Which, once again, belies the idea that making a “rape is a compliment if the guy’s hot!” joke is somehow risky.
You know which rape joke was risky? Sarah Silverman’s joke about rape victims rarely reporting rape. It’s a joke that forces the audience to take notice at the fact that they’re laughing about something very serious, and maybe it isn’t all that funny. Whereas a joke like Phoebe Robinson’s “good-looking rapist” joke, or Silverman’s own “doctor” one, subtly allows the audience to feel more comfortable about rape and more comfortable about laughing at rape.
Unless, of course, the audience member has a rape survivor in it who might have been raped by her doctor, or had a rape allegation dismissed because she should take it as a compliment that a good-looking man wanted her so badly. But that kind of stuff never happens in real life, right?
“Tina Fey tried a similar tactic with a controversial scene on ’30 Rock’ in which her character, Liz Lemon, acts disgusted when her longtime confidant Pete Hornberger describes having sex with his wife while she was sleeping.”
Yeah, I saw that. It wasn’t funny. And I normally like 30 Rock.
“[Amy Schumer] begins one of her most dependable jokes by triumphantly announcing that she slept with her ‘high school crush.’ While this could come off like a boast, her sugary delivery makes it sound like a heartwarming dream come true, albeit over a decade late. Then Ms. Schumer gooses the crowd — ‘right?’ she shouts, earning applause. Pause: ‘But now he expects me to go to his graduation.’
The line between good and bad taste moves so quickly these days that a provocateur must be nimble, constantly looking to raise the ante. So at two recent performances Ms. Schumer added a second punch line, delivered with a catty sigh: ‘Like I know what I’m going to be doing in three years.'”
So we’ve already hit “rape is a compliment” and “rape is funny when the victim is male,” and now we have both “statutory rape is funny” and “rape is funny when the perpetrator is a woman.” (Hint: no, it’s not.)
Did a part of me laugh at that joke? Yeah, a little. I didn’t see the punch line coming, and I definitely didn’t see the next punch line coming, and I do tend to laugh at the unexpected. I can also have a dark sense of humor and I appreciate dark jokes.
Still, laughing at it makes me hate myself a little.
This is my general opinion about rape jokes: I hate jokes that imply that rape is totally funny, that make fun of victims, or try to imply that rape is totally not a big deal. I also don’t like jokes that use rape as a setup for a different joke because I believe they often implicitly condone or trivialize rape.
On the other hand, I tend to appreciate jokes that make fun of rapists or rape culture or acknowledge that rape is underreported and terrible. But even those can be incredibly triggering and upsetting to other survivors, and I’m not sure they’re always worth it.
Yet rape jokes are everywhere.
I have a long list of favorite sitcoms that I have laughed at uproariously, cherished, and watched individual episodes a number of times. I have sketch comedy groups I love. I have comedians I love.
Every single one of my favorite modern shows and comedians has, at one point or another, included jokes about rape or sexual assault. In fact, I’d venture a guess that rape jokes are more common in modern comedy than fart jokes.
Thinking about that, and about this article, I now have three questions:
1) Are more female comedians making rape jokes because they think it’s really funny, or because they’re trying to “fit in” the boys’ club that is stand-up comedy?
2) To what extent does a female comedian’s participation in a rape joke reinforce rape culture?
3) How can a type of humor be edgy if everyone’s doing it?
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I’m going off-topic, but it’s sort of connected.
I also watch “2 Broke Girls.” I like the friendship that is developing between the girls, and the way they are working together towards a goal, and are not rivals. The putdowns of annoying customers are usually funny. But what I don’t find funny anymore, or edgy, is the continued frequent uses of the words “vagina” and “penis.” I do believe in calling parts of the anatomy by their proper names. By I am convinced that the writers are having their characters say these words so often for shock (edge)value. It isn’t shocking or edgy anymore. It’s just lazy writing. It’s like pre-adolescents saying “butt” or “poop” and laughing hysterically each time, while the adults smile, knowing the kids will mature eventually. I no longer laugh when I hear characters say “penis.” It’s become overdone. In fact, now I watch a scene unfold and guess where the writers will slip in those words, and how hard the actresses will have to sell that it’s organic to the situation.
Your comments? I think you can easily devote a column to this.
In fact, now I watch a scene unfold and guess where the writers will slip in those words, and how hard the actresses will have to sell that it’s organic to the situation.
I think it’s a real credit to Kat Dennings and Beth Behrs that they manage to sell ANY of those moments.
To be fair to the show, I know several people who are always making sex jokes and innuendos. Then again, just because it happens in real life doesn’t mean it makes good television.
Now I confess I don’t laugh easily and it takes a lot for something to make me laugh out loud, but it’s not hard for me to know my stance on the issue when I have never heard a rape, natural disaster, abortion or any such joke which made me laugh.
I agree and sympathize, but there is something about the wording of your comment that made me chuckle. I think it’s throwing “natural disaster” in there, as rape/abortion have a very natural connection but “natural disaster” is very much “one of these things is not like the other.”
I don’t mean to undermine what you’re saying, though, because it’s important.
I think that the topic ends with ‘rape is not funny” and if I have to be honest, the idea of Porky raping Elmer is not even remotely funny, it’s just… akward and uncomfortable and wrong.
Really, I understand that humor is and could be used to attract attention, deal with difficult subjects but I don’t see that. I just see and hear people making fun oof a serious social issue which gets almost no attention.
No, I totally get it. The Porky/Elmer joke is one that I laughed at many, many years ago when I first read Carlin’s Brain Droppings book. But I was about twelve when I read it. I find it much less funny now.
I just see and hear people making fun oof a serious social issue which gets almost no attention.
That really is the crux of the issue right there.
I can still be caught off guard, but usually it’s more of a–
*Punchline*
“…Ha….ha?”
There’s not a sucker-punch moment where I respond with laughter, but a moment of analysis where I’m also going, “Wait, who or what are we mocking here?”
In general: there’s not much I’ve found to support the happy or acceptable existence of rape jokes. I’ve had conflicts internal and external on the subject,* and generally come to the same conclusion. I suppose it’s possible to get one that strictly mocks and derides rapists, but I’m not sure how that would work.
Even Silverman’s joke, I feel like the average response is “Haha! That’s true! And shocking to joke about!” and no discomfort about the realities of it. I don’t think anyone walks out gulping and thinking, “Wow, that’s actually true and really messed up.”
It makes *me* uncomfortable because I know of plenty of unreported ones, and people are laughing at the idea they aren’t reported. So, not because I think it’s kinda funny, but because it isn’t in the least.
Inevitably, someone wanders out, “I’m a survivor and I tell jokes to normalize/trivialize/etc the event!” It’s all well and good and I don’t realistically begrudge any survivor that (I’m not a survivor, they have more right to react as they need to, as far as I’m concerned. Very much whatever works). The problem for me, though, is that there are plenty of survivors (and, to a lesser extent, secondaries like myself) who don’t deal through humour. Or who don’t want to have it sprung unexpectedly. The entirety of Community was soured by outtakes that made what was allegedly a joke about Allison Brie being raped. I’m not even sure what the punchline was supposed to be. Even detaching and trying to analyze–there was no joke, except, disturbingly, “Lol, rape.” In-show it had some that teetered close but I could gloss over. That one was triggering just as a secondary though.
But that’s sort of my final judgment (personally): the risk of very real triggers for people who don’t deal by humour, and the fact that generally the essence of humour requires an element of the unexpected–it’s not ever worth it. Ever. Having seen people go into shock over unexpected triggers from media…the return is not worth the risk. Ever.
*A friend got upset with me for very, very quietly defriending them over one, then threw back at me that it was terrible for me to think she could find rape funny, as she had been raped herself. The fact that she had posted what she agreed was a rape joke did not seem to factor in to why I could come to this conclusion. Let it be known, in this, that my reaction to it was simply to defriend her. So surreptitiously she didn’t realize it happened for about five months. I didn’t condemn, chastise or otherwise comment. I just silently withdrew from having unexpected and triggering comments appear in what is ideally a reasonably safe space.
There’s not a sucker-punch moment where I respond with laughter, but a moment of analysis where I’m also going, “Wait, who or what are we mocking here?”
I often have that reaction, too.
Even Silverman’s joke, I feel like the average response is “Haha! That’s true! And shocking to joke about!” and no discomfort about the realities of it. I don’t think anyone walks out gulping and thinking, “Wow, that’s actually true and really messed up.”
It makes *me* uncomfortable because I know of plenty of unreported ones, and people are laughing at the idea they aren’t reported.
That’s a really good point. Still, the writer of the article mentioned that the audience WASN’T laughing at that joke of Silverman’s, so I have to wonder if that struck something in them. Maybe, “Oh, damn. This shit isn’t funny.”
The entirety of Community was soured by outtakes that made what was allegedly a joke about Allison Brie being raped. I’m not even sure what the punchline was supposed to be. Even detaching and trying to analyze–there was no joke, except, disturbingly, “Lol, rape.”
I know exactly which outtake you’re referring to, and it hurt to watch. I wasn’t prepared for it at all, it sprung on me completely unawares as I was enjoying the other outtakes, and it was really upsetting. The fact that the cast/crew seems to think it’s just HILARIOUS is disturbing enough in of itself, but whatever, that’s how you want to play on your own time, then who am I to judge? But to actually film it and put it on the outtake reel for the public to see?
It didn’t ruin the show for me but I have to consciously forget about it to enjoy it.
But that’s sort of my final judgment (personally): the risk of very real triggers for people who don’t deal by humour, and the fact that generally the essence of humour requires an element of the unexpected–it’s not ever worth it. Ever. Having seen people go into shock over unexpected triggers from media…the return is not worth the risk. Ever.
I mostly agree with that. Mostly. I recently saw a sketch comedy group do an extended rape joke that was more sophisticated than the average “LOL RAPE” stuff you’ll see, and though I could definitely see how it would be upsetting, I listened to the conversation around it at the after-party and it was pretty interesting.
But then I think, what if someone was seriously triggered by it and uggggh.
I didn’t condemn, chastise or otherwise comment. I just silently withdrew from having unexpected and triggering comments appear in what is ideally a reasonably safe space.
That sounds like an entirely reasonable and mature response.
I guess I’m just a really un-funny feminist, because I don’t find rape jokes even remotely funny. I do find your questions thought provoking. Female comedians have been trying to find the right note to hit since Joan Rivers started, and they often struggle with it. If they are too strident, they are criticized. However, I think that there has been gradually more acceptance of that brand of comedy over the years, which is probably why I’m not a fan of stand up, generally. I don’t like strident, biting, cruel humor whether it’s coming from a man or a woman. I think you are correct that women making rape jokes is a way for women to show that they aren’t over-sensitive or vulnerable – to be “one of the boys.” Why they want to is beyond me. As for edgy… edgy only lasts a couple of times. After that, the edgy-wannabees all jump on board and pretty soon it’s mainstream. Then someone comes up with something even further out on the ledge and that becomes the new edgy. But since most people want to be edgy, they always hope on the bandwagon and take all the edgy out of edgy. Edgy pushes our buttons, rouses us, makes us think – or it can. Sometimes, it’s just poor taste.
I think you are correct that women making rape jokes is a way for women to show that they aren’t over-sensitive or vulnerable – to be “one of the boys.” Why they want to is beyond me.
I wonder if they feel they’re not going to get anywhere unless they prove that they can be “one of the boys,” and that just makes me sad.
Edgy pushes our buttons, rouses us, makes us think – or it can. Sometimes, it’s just poor taste.
Yes. Well said.
The only “rape joke” that felt acceptable to me that I’v heard is (and i forget the comedian and the exact phrasing so bear with me) where the comedian (male) starts off telling a story. “You know when there is a really hot woman that you want to sleep with but she is totally not interested? And you see her at a party or a bar and you decide to get her really drunk and then offer to drive her home? Haha success you got laid! And also you’re a rapist.” I don’t find it funny exactly, but it at least cuts right to what is really, as you say, risky about rape jokes – confronting the uncomfortable truth that rapists are people whose motivations society too often overlooks or excuses. The punchline isn’t the victim, it is the violator.
In general though, rape just isn’t something to joke about. Comedy ought to cut through the bs and try to upset the status quo, while the vast majority of rape jokes enforce rape culture and misogyny. I think women who make rape jokes do worse for enforcing rape jokes because I think it makes whatever men who want to feel or speak that way feel more comfortable about doing it. And it also makes it harder for women who dislike rape jokes to speak up about it because someone will just say “well, this was a joke made by a woman so it must be okay to say.” I don’t blame women comedians more for this result, but I do wish they would construct more cutting jokes at the very least.
I don’t find it funny exactly, but it at least cuts right to what is really, as you say, risky about rape jokes – confronting the uncomfortable truth that rapists are people whose motivations society too often overlooks or excuses. The punchline isn’t the victim, it is the violator.
I agree – it’s not LOLhilarious, but it’s worthwhile because it points out how f’ed-up that joke is.
Comedy ought to cut through the bs and try to upset the status quo, while the vast majority of rape jokes enforce rape culture and misogyny.
This.
I don’t blame women comedians more for this result, but I do wish they would construct more cutting jokes at the very least.
Yeah, I always feel sad when female comedians make rape jokes but I find it hard to lay too much blame on them for it. Though it also depends on the comedian in question.
Aimee, this one example is good. I approve. 🙂
I have been thinking on this topic for a while and thinkin about tv representation.
Rpe jokes, horrible jokes, violense, statutory rape… all of these get a free pass somehow.
I have been struggling to figure out why exactly violence is seen as funny, regardless sexual or physical violence.
Hell, I wrote yesterday about how teacher/student relationships are so regularly presented as romantic (which I find utterly confusing and horrible) and sweet.
I think that rape jokes (and all sex-related violence and crimes) are very mixed and confused and the reactons towards them mirror that.
That came out more rambly than I expected. 🙂
I have been struggling to figure out why exactly violence is seen as funny, regardless sexual or physical violence.
I have a theory (that’s not actually founded on fact, just perception) that “violence as funny” springs from a general love of slapstick and physical humor, but just dials it up to 11.
I mean, I would never say that something like The Three Stooges or Laurel & Hardy contribute to a pro-violence culture, but a lot of their comedy depends on people getting hurt and hurting each other. It doesn’t have a sadistic undertone, though, and I think that makes a huge difference.
“I have been struggling to figure out why exactly violence is seen as funny, regardless sexual or physical violence.”
I think in many cases it becomes an absurdity distinct from personal experience. Either the personal experience does not exist, or the set-up and delivery are isolated/dissociated from personal experience.
and a healthy (?) dose of schadenfreude.
I think in many cases it becomes an absurdity distinct from personal experience. Either the personal experience does not exist, or the set-up and delivery are isolated/dissociated from personal experience.
Yeah, I think violence can be very funny when there’s no real-life equivalent or when there’s no trace of sadism.
I’m not going to laugh at husbands or wives beating each other, but will I laugh when someone slips on a banana peel? Sure.
This interview between Elizabeth Hasselbeck and Bill Maher reminded me of some of your posts on the subject of rape humor/sensitive subject humor. Maher even uses the “eqaul oppertunity” excuse…and not particularly well,either. I thought this video ight interest you:
I find a lot of Elizabeth Hasselback’s opinions and comments repulsive and bigoted.
Having said that, in this case, she is entirely in the right.
Even though Maher and everyone else was not aware of Lara Logan’s rape at the time he made that comment, Maher was still suggesting that he exchange Elizabeth Hasselback for another country to hold her as a HOSTAGE. No, he did not know that Lara Logan had been raped, and therefore was not directly stating that he wanted Elizabeth Hasselback to be raped – and I don’t believe he DID want Elizabeth Hasselback to be raped.
But come on. Pick up a damn newspaper. If a person DID pick up a damn newspaper, s/he would know that hostage rape/rape of women prisoners happens ALL THE DAMN TIME, and that it is very likely to happen.
Thank you for sharing this. Yeah, he didn’t defend himself well, but that’s Maher for you. Thinking that feminists are whiny and hysterical are kind of his “thing.”
My pleasure.
“Thinking that feminists are whiny and hysterical is kind of his “thing.” ” Really? I was unaware of that. That’s rather frustrating. Do you recall any other incidents that stood out to you? (Just out of curiosity).
I don’t think he really wants Elizabeth Hasselback to be raped, either, but the suggestion he was making was still in very poor taste, and it was nice to see Hasselback challenge him on that.
Here are a few examples.
He loves him some rape jokes, too.
Yeesh…that sounds like a real treat.
Aimee – I have seen barely any stand-up, but in my experience of TV and Cinema comedy, jokes about raping men (usually, but not always in prison) are incredibly prevalent, whereas jokes about raping women are scarce. Obviously I can’t speak for you and this has just been my experience, but wouldn’t this contradict your claim that the “vast majority” of rape jokes enforce misogyny?
Also, I think it might be over-doing things to equate statutory rape with adult non-consensual abuse. I have known several couples who began relationships when one member was fifteen while the other was eighteen, which is legally defined as satutory rape where I’m from, yet these were all wholesome, emotionally stable relationships between people of similar maturity levels. Definitions of statutory rape also vary widely between regions (including many places making the age of consent higher for same-sex intercourse), so shouldn’t this lead us to make up our own mind about whether legally-defined “statutory rape” is morally acceptable in the specific instance, and whether or not it’s ok to joke about?
Obviously I can’t speak for you and this has just been my experience, but wouldn’t this contradict your claim that the “vast majority” of rape jokes enforce misogyny?
No, because rape culture and misogyny negatively affects men as much as it does women.
The vast majority of rape survivors are women, but it doesn’t mean men aren’t also raped. Men just suffer different, though equally difficult, consequences. Both women and men suffer from victim-blaming and victim-shaming. A misogynist will likely tell a woman that she deserved to be raped because she dressed like a slut, and the same misogynist will likely tell a man that he deserved to be raped because he acted faggy – or, if the rapist is a woman, that he couldn’t have been raped, because all guys want to fuck hot chicks, and if he let a woman rape him, he must be a pussy.
The truth about misogynists is that they really hate men as much as they hate women.
Your hypothetical misogynist hates some sorts of men – yet this doesn’t mean he hates men in general any more than it makes me a misogynist for not liking some women. I think it’s a bit of a confusion to equate characteristic-hate with all-encompassing gender-hate. A person who did hate men and women equally would be a misanthrope, in any case, but it seems to me that you’re talking about a homophobic misogynist. In that case, misogyny would not affect men as adversely as women, since the majority of men are (or behave in a way that is associated with being) heterosexual, and so would generally avoid being victimised by homophobic misogynists. In terms of rape humour, jokes about male victims are usually homophobic (in my view) – ie they criticise victims for not living up to the norms of heterosexual masculinity, which are considered intrinsically male, normal and correct. This idealising of heterosexual masculinity is the opposite of man-hatred.
Oh, come on, really?
1. Rape is never funny, regardless if it is jokes about men being raped or women being raped. because… the shtick is that sexual abuse is somehow unimportant and not a big deal. Sexual violence is usually dismissed, and the main victim of sexual violence are women. So rape being funny if it happens to men is exactly on the same page as rape being funny if it happens to women, or if that he being pretty makes it somehow OK (which is a usual defense of rapists. “But he looks so good, he don’t need to rape to sleep with women”, “omg, she is so ugly, she needs to be grateful” and so forth…. that’s misogyny.
Stand up comedian who joke about men being raped is only a smart part of a culture who objectifies women and sees sexual violence and violence against women as sexy or “deserved” or is judged by a “code” of some sorts (“was she slutty, was she pretty and so forth).
2. Statutory rape (and i gave an example) is problematic as a topic.
For instance… i don’t see anyone here condemning 15/18 year old’s relationships. i see discussing that 2o something, 30 something and so forth joking about sleeping with underage girls (or doing so and seen as ok) is the problem.
Hell, I think I gave a pretty solid example of such relationship, which is so not OK.
I will repeat myself – Aria Montgomery and Ezra Fitz from “Pretty Little Liars”. This is a teen soap mystery drama and Ezra is a high school teacher who has a relationship with a girl who is a student in his class. See… the show presents it as romantic and nice and sweet and ok. And I am seriously spooked by it.
I suppose I haven’t heard a lot of stand up comedians who make rape jokes so i shouldn’t have commented on that. However, I hear casual joking around rape, either as a euphemism in gaming or to tear women down on the internet and that is what immediately comes to mind for me. I think that “joking” about raping men creates the environment for the more vicious joking to take place. And Lady T made better points than I on this :).
I hear a lot of casual joking about it, too, which I find even more offensive than including rape jokes in a stand-up routine.
the euphemism in gaming thing really bugs me. And a survivor I know.
I realize the intention is actually completely divorced from the reality–it’s almost a parallel definition, even.
It’s intended as a hyperbolic representation of extreme loss in gaming, but it manages to lighten the meaning of the word, while not discussing the actual meaning of it, thus lightening the aura of the original word. Which I find very unpleasant.
Of course, my reaction has followed quickly to, “Oh, you’re going to be dealing with the loss of this game for the rest of your life? Maybe feel the need to move away from everyone you love? Suffer endless nightmares, perhaps? Be suddenly reminded by things even you aren’t aware of and freeze up or go into shock? Yeah. Didn’t think so.”
Thank you for bringing this up, because I think I hate the use of “rape” as a hyperbolic verb EVEN MORE than I hate the use of rape jokes in comedy.
I once had a good friend mention that his team got totally “raped” in the Superbowl, and it saddened me. It made me realize that the use of “raped” in a hyperbolic sense is so ubiquitous that even good, feminist, anti-rape people who respect women in general are using it. At that moment, I didn’t feel like starting a huge debate on it, so I just rolled my eyes and said “Rape is hilarious” very sarcastically.
Again, this was a good friend who has demonstrated over and over that he respects women as people, so I didn’t consider it a huge character flaw or a sign that he’s a secret misogynist, but it bummed me out. “Shit, even people I like do this.”
I recently watched this video:
[youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4hNaFkbZYU&w=420&h=315%5D
And I have to admit, I kind of thought it was funny. I’ve done a lot of research and writing on rape and sexual assault so I tend, consciously, to think it’s not funny but then I catch myself occasionally chuckling at jokes about it and it makes me wonder about myself. I also had to work to edit “rape” in the hyperbolic sense out of my vocabulary as you mentioned in previous comments and it wasn’t easy because it was so embedded in my language and that of my peers.
This is a really difficult and self-reflective issue to work out… Def appreciate you writing about it!
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I was molested by a neighbor when I was three. I was so confused by the whole experience, I never told anyone until I was much older. By the time I talked about it, I had blocked it so thoroughly from my mind that I still have trouble being sure if it really happened or if it has become a memory because I dreamed it so often (though I would like to believe my subconscious wouldn’t come up with that much graphic horror on its own).
I think I have a pretty good sense of humor. Really. I laugh at stuff all the time and I will be the first to whip out an inappropriate or sexual joke. But, for me, sex jokes and rape jokes are completely different. When rape comes up, I am completely incapable of laughing. It makes me freeze. I instantly feel complete panic, my mind goes into fight-or-flight mode, and I am fighting the urge to throw up. This isn’t me being “uptight”, this is an involuntary, panicked response. I get the need to be “edgy” in comedy, but (ah, there’s the “but” again) as soon as the joke crosses into that territory for me, it can’t be funny. It forcefully thrusts me back into the terror and helplessness of my very worst nightmares. I can’t describe the level of weakness and impotent rage this brings up for me.
I know my opinion is heavily biased and marred by my own experience, but what about rape or sexual abuse survivors in those audiences? Their most painful moments are being brought up and made light of. That’s just something I can’t get over.
Bring on the other jokes, though. Seriously. Because I really do love to laugh.
This isn’t me being “uptight”, this is an involuntary, panicked response.
That is something that many people completely fail and/or refuse to understand. Thank you for explaining it so succintly, and for being brave enough to share this experience here.
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[Added by Lady T: mentions of anal rape ahead]
Jimmy Carr claims that offense is taken, not given, and that the audience decides what is acceptable. Personally, I agree with that, but I still avoid rape jokes for the simple reason that they are incredibly insensitive. Just yesterday, I made a throwaway comment about how likely I am to get ass-raped in prison, and one of my female friends had a total nervous breakdown. These sorts of jokes should only be told if you’re 100% sure you won’t hurt the listener. And even then, there’s always the risk that you develop a bad habit, and laugh at the wrong thing in front of the wrong person.
Lady T, I think you captured my own thoughts pretty succinctly on the subject of rape jokes with;
“Nowhere do these two life philosophies contradict each other more sharply than on the subject of rape jokes. Not that I think people should “lighten up” when it comes to rape jokes, and I would never tell another survivor that s/he was being “too sensitive,” but I wondered if there was a way to joke about it in a sensitive manner.”
Until recently, I’ve usually sidelined rape jokes with something like, “Nothing is sacred in comedy”. If I’m honest, it’s a flippant thought at it’s core — a sort of free pass for humor. I think the thing I’m missing is the idea that humour, comedy, and jokes, or their prevalence/context/etc., have repercussions in the culture at large. I know this free pass arises from my comparison of rape jokes to jokes to other, equally offensive topics such as murder, pedophilia, violence, anorexia, and so on. A lot of dark or gallows humour which I generally find myself laughing at or giggling along to. (As you’ve guessed, I’m obviously a very, very terrible person.) The one common denominator I find these jokes have in common, at least at a casual glance, is their taboo and/or horrific/shocking nature and yet, I still laugh if I think it’s humorous in some form. In spite of my lack of knowing why just yet.
Part of me wonders how much of my reaction to these jokes is a result of the structures/elements of humour being used (e.g. irony, slapstick, juxtaposition of the absurd with reality, etc.) versus the actual nature of the content. For example, Silverman’s joke about women under reporting rape is in part ‘funny’ because it is an application of stereotypical humor — it has just enough of that (disturbing) grain of truth about our culture about rape victims to be familiar and recognizable to everyone followed up by the irony of expecting complaints from rape victims — that rape victims do not generally report rape. Unfortunately, for rape victims, it is a stereotype that has far more truth than most, not just a mere ‘grain’ – one that should be shocking and should make people uncomfortable. In and of themselves, stereotypes and irony can be humourous and those are definitely elements at work, I think. It’s just that the content is rape, which has a set of consequences all its own. (Even then, I wonder if those it’s ‘just’ those mechanism at work rather than anything inherent in the topics.)
With my earlier statement — “Nothing is sacred in comedy” — a big thing I know I’ve not thought deeply about is the proper evaluation of the impact that humor has on culture, on people, on rapists, and on rape victims. It’s a conundrum similar to many art forms, such as literature, music, poetry, sculpture, etc. in which, once a work leaves the care and keeping of its author, its musician, its poet, or its sculpture — it’s in the hands of the public to do with, internalize, and interpret as they will.
I’m still in the process of doing a lot of reading and thinking on this topic, but still can’t quite make up my mind. It’s always bothered me as a feminist and someone who is highly aware and angry at the type of rape culture which, at least U.S., society has shown itself to harbor. And yet i still love my dark gallows humor. =/ Dilemma.
The examples of Amy Schumer’s rape jokes shown here are mild compared to what I just saw on her show. She said “We’ve all been a little raped… you (points to audience member), you look like you’ve been raped before.” Imagine if that audience member were actually raped? She went on, “Rape happens *shrugs.*” It bothers me how she was talking about it as if it were not only normal, but acceptable.